Pakistan not responsible for Afghan situation, Obama is: John McCain
Former Republican Presidential candidate of US, John McCain talks to Dr Moeed Pirzada exclusively
(Web Desk) - Former Republican Presidential candidate Senator John McCain has on Thursday held United States (US) President Barack Obama responsible for the situation in Afghanistan. He said that neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan could be blamed for the situation in Afghanistan as it were Obama s policies that worsened the situation.
The interview was held on 30th of June 2016 and the transcript of the discussion between Dr Moeed Pirzada and the senator can be read below.
Special Interview conducted by Dr. Moeed Pirzada with John McCain US Senator, Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Former Republican Presidential candidate.
Dated: 30.06.2016
Moeed Pirzada: I’m in Washington with Senator John McCain, Chairman of US Senate Arms Services committee, but not only this; the senator has thirty plus years of very rich experience with US congress, his signature is written in large, on all crucial legislations including the 9/11 commission. He has been a former republican presidential candidate. Time Magazine has declare him as one of the 25 most influential American people within United States and one of the ten best senators. Senator McCain is deeply interested in Pakistan and Afghanistan, we’re talking at a time when he’s about to visit the region.
Moeed Pirzada: Senator McCain, I’m so glad that you took time for our viewership in Dunya News. What is it that is taking you to Pakistan?
Senator McCain: I think at this time it’s very important, there are many issues concerning Afghanistan in particular but with Pakistan having a major impact on the situation. Events in Pakistan have also been very interesting. There are a number of issues ranging from mutual security interests to F-16s to the Haqqani network etc. Also, the4 relationship between the United States and Pakistan is one of great importance, not only because of our friendship, but also because of national security considerations.
Moeed Pirzada: Senator! I’m glad that you’re calling it an important relationship, but fears have risen in the past several months that this relationship is drifting apart, that it’s not the same, and that it’s becoming transactional. And there is also a fear in Islamabad that there is an Indian veto on this relationship, like the F-16 deal.
Senator McCain: I think that the presence of the new leader of India, Prime Minister Modi is of great interest; he has solidified his position of power, embarked on various reforms that we are very supportive of. We look at China and new relationships between United States and India. But they’re not mutually exclusive. We need to have a strong and good relationship between United States and Pakistan, ranging from our common interests to our democratic ideas, to the fact that there is a significant nuclear capability that exists in Pakistan as well. And in addition to that, the Afghanistan situation has a great deal to do with the Haqqani network and the borders between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Moeed Pirzada: Senator, I’ll remind you there was a very interesting conference by foreign policy magazine in March 2009 and Dr Robert Kagen was moderating that. You said something very interesting; this was right after Obama’s plan for the region. You said you were not really comfortable with this performance based relationship with Pakistan. You also said that you think that Pakistan is large enough and nuclear capable, so the US need not look at it as Pakistan and Afghanistan prism, rather there should be Pakistan strategy as well. But now do you think its working? Or 7 years down the line, you still do not have a specific Pakistan relationship?
Senator McCain: I think there are issues but I also think that the fundamentals of our relationship are not only a nice thing to have; they are critical because of the upheaval in the region. Whether it be the rattles of ISIS, whether it be the continued activities of the Haqqani network, whether it be the deterioration of the military in Afghanistan. There’s a wide range of issues that argue for a close relationship between the US and Pakistan. And there is also a very active Paksitani American influence in America as well, as it should be.
Moeed Pirzada: But Senator, the fear when I talked to the Pakistani American community members, the Pakistani members of the press, diplomats and even military personnel, that Pakistan is now either being viewed through the Afghanistan prism, which has happened since President Obama took over and created the Af-Pak term, and also through your strategic relationship with India to counter China. So you do not have a direct approach towards Pakistan; either you have to see Pakistan behaving towards India, or delivering something in Afghanistan. Could there be a direct relationship with Pakistan?
Senator McCain: A good relationship with India does not mean it should affect the importance of a good relationship between US and Pakistan, it should not be either or. But I have to speak very frankly; we are continually concerned with the Haqqani network, which is very active and exporting terror into Afghanistan. So that’s an issue of great importance. We’re not going to settle it except for dialogue and action. Not through ostracizing or changing our relationship with Pakistan.
Moeed Pirzada: What is your vision on the Haqqani network? Do you want Taliban to be engaged and brought to the table or do you want Taliban to be destroyed?
Senator McCain: I want all of the above. If they do not come to the table then obviously they pose a threat. And I believe that Pakistan can play a major role in achieving that. And I also believe that the Pakistan-Afghanistan relationship is of great importance. We know that the Haqqani network is still operating from bases in Pakistan. We need to try to address that issue and for the benefit of our country and Afghanistan. So I believe that with every nation we have issues, but that does not mean that there is any benefit to breaking off relations or causing a relationship to deteriorate, it argues for closer relations.
Moeed Pirzada: Agreed! But Senator, when you specifically mention Haqqani network, do you consider Haqqani network as a standalone entity or do you consider the Haqqani network as a part of Afghan Taliban?
Senator McCain: I see Haqqani network as one of the most important issues that need to be resolved between our two countries but there is a number of other issues, including the Pakistani-Indian relationship. We want to do everything we can to improve that relationship. It is in America’s interest to see a beneficial relationship between Pakistan and India. It’s not in anybody’s interest to see rising tensions.
Moeed Pirzada: But Senator, President Obama has gone out on limbs to push India’s case for the Nuclear Supplier’s Group (NSG) which is still not working because there’s Chinese resistance. But the fear in Pakistan is this that if India enters NSG, then India will hold a veto to the Pakistani entry within the NSG which will then create an imbalance in the region.
Senator McCain: I hope that will not be the case. And I’d like to see assurances from India that this would not happen; it’s in nobody’s interest in my view. But the issue of Nuclear weapons or nuclearization is probably one of the greatest potential threats to peace in the region. And that’s why it’s in America’s interest to see a secure nuclear inventory in Pakistan. And not fall prey to any terrorist capabilities get a hold of those weapons, that’s in Pakistan’s interest as well as the United States.
Moeed Pirzada: Senator, do you think that Pakistan and India should together enter the NSG as China has produced a criteria based entry rather than create exception for any single country. Should there be criteria “sign NPT”?
Senator McCain: I think there should always be an agreed upon criteria based on the absolute necessity of not increasing the likelihood of some kind of Nuclear confrontation or abuse of these materials in order to produce nuclear weapons. But to get into the details of who should say what, the result that we want is a safe and secure nuclear inventory in Pakistan. If India wants to move forward with obtaining nuclear power plants under the proper safeguards, that seems to me, good for everybody including the issue of common change. And I also hope, and maybe I am too much of an optimist, that there would be recognition of a god relationship between India and Pakistan is in everyone’s interest including the people of both countries.
Moeed Pirzada: while talking to Stevenisky in NPR, at a radio program, you said that you think that there should be a permanent presence of the US troops in Afghanistan just like Germany and Korea and Japan, do you think this is something you’ll be able to sell to the white house and Russia and China?
McCain: We have learnt two lessons from history; Korea and Bosnia, and that is that we went in, we defeated, we gave these people a chance and we still have our troops there. We have them build democracy, build government setups etc. Then we have the case of Libya and Iraq. In Libya, we killed Qaddafi and left. In Iraq, the President of the United States withdrew everybody. Look at the results! So yes, I would like to see a permanent presence, which would be dictated by the situation on the ground. If you tell the Taliban that the forces are leaving on a specific date, as the President previously did, I tell you that the Taliban would just wait us out. And the present plan that the president has of cutting those troops further, from 9800 to 5000, would be a horrible mistake and we would be replaying the same movie we saw in Iraq. So the President is supposedly revisiting this decision. Many of us have passionately urged the president to leave the troops as they are. The Taliban are succeeding in parts of Afghanistan. And again, the Haqqani network having safe havens in parts of Pakistan is very harmful to our cause.
Moeed Pirzada: Ambassador Richard Olson, the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan and also the white house spokesperson has recently said that we’re sticking to the drawdown plan.
McCain: I don’t think they are. Because our military leadership including our Commander in Chief in Afghanistan, General Nicholson, has given estimates that we are not succeeding, that the Taliban are succeeding. I don’t know what his recommendation to the white house is, but I think that any commander who feels that the battlefield situation is not in his favor would recommend not reducing troops further. And I promise you it’s the will of congress that we will not see the sacrifice made of American blood and treasure go to waste the same way as it did as we pulled everybody out of Iraq.
Moeed Pirzada: But Senator, You’re someone who’s deeply interested in the issues in Afghanistan and Pakistan. You have visited the region several times. And today this week Newyorker has brought a piece which says that Ashraf Ghani is the chief theorist in Afghanistan like Jimmy Carter and he doesn’t have a political pulse and he is a technocrat, reading books and all, and 60percent of the government has no presence outside the government office. So do you think Taliban are the only issue or is something else needed in Afghanistan?
Senator McCain: I believe that I have to be very frank. I believe that Ashraf Ghani has been a significant improvement over Karzai. I think the relationship he has between himself and the US has been dramatically improved. I see the Afghan military enormous sacrifices taking significant casualties as they’re fighting for their country but I also see the Taliban making gains. I don’t blame Ashraf Ghani. I blame the United States of America for not consolidating the gains that we made. And this president has this idea for the last 8 years that if we pull out of conflicts, those conflicts end. Let me give you an example of what just happened. In Istanbul, the rise of terrorism and a base for terrorism in a place called Raka, and that is now, that ISIS group is now establishing a beach head. Guess where? Afghanistan, as well as Libya, as well as other places. We see abject failure of American policy and no strategy. I don’t blame Pakistan for that. I don’t blame Ashraf Ghani for that. I blame this president of the United States who is a failed leader.
Moeed Pirzada: One last question. The Pakistan People’s party has created a lot of stir about your recent meeting last week with ex-president Asif Ali Zardari. What was the meeting about?
Senator McCain: He requested to meet with me, I was in Los Angeles and I saw him after the dinner that was held. I had met him in the past and I have always welcomed to meet anyone who is of significance and if anyone objects to a meeting I don’t quite understand that. That does not mean that I’m adopting any significant change in any of my views as we have covered very extensively in this interview. I look forward, I’m sorry that the Prime Minister isn’t going to be in London, when I’m there, but we wish him well. But we will be meeting the leader of the senate, we will be meeting with General Raheel and we will be meeting with others and I’ve always believed that you should meet with as many people as you can when you’re trying to get a good estimate of the situation.
